It's not about physical vs digital games, it's about ownership
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But most people use Steam anyway, I hear you say. That’s true, but you can still own your games on Steam. Very easily, in fact! Steam doesn’t apply a hard DRM for games on their platform, you can bypass it and play your games offline without the launcher if you know what you’re doing.
Because PC is an open platform, people have figured this out and will continue to figure out bypasses in case things go south (which they haven’t so far, thankfully). All you need is to get something called the Goldberg Emulator, replace the SteamAPI file, then add an app_id.txt file. Done. You can play any Steam game offline (assuming the publisher didn’t put their own DRM like Denuvo). I’ve done this a lot, and it is legal as long as you don’t share your game to other people.
This part bears repeating anytime someone says “Valve killed ownership”. They can break the trust that is formed with their customers at any time, but so far they have not.
It really is all about trust. Of all the digital storefronts, Sony is the only major one I can think of that has actually reached into people’s libraries and pulled things out[1]. So far it seems to be limited to movies and TV shows, so it’s not a perfect 1:1, but they are the worst company to trust on this.
Buying from any digital store with DRM is a risk. Some have failed completely, but the big three of Sony, Valve, and MS are unlikely to go under any time soon. By establishing a precedent of tying your access to their behind-the-scenes licensing agreements, Sony’s model is more risky for consumers than the others.
- Ok, Amazon/Kindle was actually maybe the first. I haven’t heard of that happening for a long time, and obtaining another copy of a book is trivially easy, but they get a dishonorable mention.
Other examples are welcome, I’m always willing to put another company on the naughty list.
Steam pulled out content (music) from GTA San Andreas install with an “update.”
Can’t you download the old update, though? I think that’s a thing, anyway. But maybe not in this case because…
Music licensing is its own insanity, and game publishers are kinda screwed on those rules. Licenses in music only permit distribution for a certain timeframe, and digital downloads are considered distribution, so when their licenses expire, they can’t legally distribute anymore.
And the RIAA are litigious assholes, so you’re gonna get sued if you don’t comply.
While at the end of the day, valve is a company that only wants your money, steam does have DRM free games
Very easily, in fact! Steam doesn’t apply a hard DRM for games on their platform, you can bypass it and play your games offline without the launcher if you know what you’re doing.
This isn’t a good point, how many people do you think remove the steam dependency from their games?
This isn’t a good point, how many people do you think remove the steam dependency from their games?
Not many, because Steam hasn’t given them a reason to. That’s not the point.
The point is that if Steam ever does shut down or start revoking games, people can keep playing them without it.
If Sony ever shuts down or starts revoking games/media you can also strip the copy protection off of it and continue using it just the same.
Where are the instructions for doing this?
https://www.psx-place.com/forums/ps5-jailbreak-hacks.242/
Look through here. Spoiler the actual copy protection removal is kept secret by people who do it.
Spoiler the actual copy protection removal is kept secret by people who do it.
Indeed. My point is that the PlayStation situation is not comparable to what we can do with Steam games, where it’s all out in the open, with multiple independent implementations, at least one of which is open-source and multi-platform.
(I’m glad there are people working on PS5 hacks, though.)
Steam also doesnt force DRM, it’s developers/publishers deciding to use it in the first place.
You’d only need Steam DRM for your game if you want to use any features like Steam multiplayer, workshop etc.
So while it’s easy to bypass, most games dont even need it in the first place.
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For games, perhaps, but I would have to disagree for HD & 4K video. Streaming and digital downloads rarely match the bitrate and quality you can get from a properly-authored BD or UHD disc, especially paired with the right player.
That’s the case with DRM. I do own my games, on a big fat HDD. While optical media literally rusts and still has DRM.
So, just to be clear, with a PC you can: * Use whatever input(s) you want, even mix and match if some parts of a game are better with a controller or KBM! * Install mods and get assloads of free, community made additional content for loads of games. * Run most any old game outside of the current and previous console generation with emulators.
Steam allows (but notably does not require) DRM but has Proton integration, Steam Input and Steam Family Sharing. The refund policy is also reasonable and makes me far more likely to try games I might not otherwise.
GOG is also an option for true digital ownership of games, if they’re sold there. The refund policy there is even better!
Meanwhile, Sony’s refund policy is laughably bad (no refunds once you start the download) and they’re about to force everyone to fucking deal with it. What is the point of owning one of these locked down, shitty boxes at this point?
The ability to trade is lost on pretty much every platform including PC. In some ways it’s been lost on PC for the longest time, because PC has had CD key nonsense since at least the 90s while consoles operated on physical media for much longer.
The lack of this ability is, of course, compensated for by piracy.
It’s really not lost with steam. You can have up to 5 accounts sharing constantly now as long as you’re not playing the same game.
Definitely a good breakdown of the major points that most are overlooking with this situation. It would be a much easier pill to swallow if these platforms were taking an approach similar to GOG or allowed for multiple storefronts on their platforms (extremely unlikely to happen).
For game consoles (focusing primarily on PlayStation and Xbox here), the following (IMHO) protections should be in place for an all digital platform that respects the customer:
• A digital purchase is tied to your account. If a game can no longer be sold on the platform, you can still download it later on if needed because you already purchased it.
• In the event that the servers are to be shut down: the downloads for active game listings and previous delisted titles that an account has access to; there will be a grace period of “X” days to allow users to buy whatever game/DLC they wish and will have the option to back up the installer for said software. This can then be moved to a compatible storage device for archiving purposes. (The cherry on top would be the ability to migrate the data to a computer so it can be archived however desired).
• A digital purchase can be lent to friends and family for “X” amount of days. During this time, the game will not be accessible to play on the host account, but can be recalled if desired. Otherwise, once the time period has passed, it will return automatically. The “lent” game will then disappear from the other players library, but if interested would have the option to visit the store page for purchase.
• Finally a digital “resale shop” where players could list their digital games/DLC. This would allow players to sell off their unwanted games and could potentially give other players the opportunity to purchase a game that may be delisted. Currency paid would likely be equivalent to store credit, but could be used for future purchases.
Sure, a lot of it is very unlikely to happen and is definitely wishful thinking, but that’s the only way I would move forward with a digital only console market. Otherwise, I would go 100% PC. Time will tell how this goes.
”I personally don’t think people care about owning physical media.”
I know I’m in what feels like a growing minority, but I will always pick up a physical copy if given a chance. I have a solid games library and I intend on playing every title I own. That said, I know eventually things will be digital only. Until that happens, I’ll stick with my Switch/2 for physical releases and multi platform releases I’ll grab on PC if it makes more sense to do so.
One last thought on this that I’ve had as someone who prefers to collect games physically. For Nintendo, I have genuinely despised their game key card approach. From a preservationists perspective, it’s a waste of money. However, getting a code in a box is a massive joke. Sony actually succeeded in making the concept of a GCK looking like a solid alternative. I really don’t know how to feel about that lol.
TL;DR - good article that brings up a lot of points others are overlooking. I personally will still get physical releases until they aren’t available anymore, then go fully digital on PC.
There will definitely be a niche market for physical games, but yeah I was thinking about the average person and their experience. Especially since PC has shifted very early, I think most people would prefer to download a game in half an hour than having to go to a store and buy a physical disk and have to constantly put it in/take it out every time you want to play something else.
For Nintendo, I have genuinely despised their game key card approach. From a preservationists perspective, it’s a waste of money. However, getting a code in a box is a massive joke. Sony actually succeeded in making the concept of a GCK looking like a solid alternative. I really don’t know how to feel about that lol.
That’s funny, I had the same exact thought when writing this. The game key card thing sounds so stupid that my first thought was “damn, I hope they don’t get away with this”. My second thought was “wait, this might be the better option on consoles now. Damn.”
Agreed on both points. I have a brother that’s on the opposite end of the debate that went full digital a while ago. Travel and a lack of space are definitely his top reasons for the shift. Which I absolutely get. That and he has a dog who thinks it’s play time the second he gets off the couch lol.
For GKC I still will not support buying them new, however, with this change I may start waiting to buy them second hand while available for those games I really want to play but won’t get a true physical copy. It will have to be console exclusive though. As for keeping them long term, probably not. I’ll go with GOG or Steam otherwise.
I know I’m in what feels like a growing minority, but I will always pick up a physical copy if given a chance.
I bought a few physical games for my PS4 back in the day and I still regret it. I can still play all the digital games I bought back then but lost all physical games. No idea where they are. Digital games are linked to my account and impossible to misplace.
Losing physical copies of games is the worst. Having everything tethered to an account can be a big plus.
I know for me that my Steam and GOG libraries will keep growing so long as I keep my accounts secure and know my credentials.
Then buy from GOG. The gaming industry is not a monopoly. Vote with your wallet.
Sure, when they get the distribution rights to the game I want that’s at the library. Till then, I stick with discs
It’s about who controls it.
Because if one side controls it and does something with it they’re not legally entitled to do do, they still get away with it if it’s not worth it for the other side, even being in the right, to take it to Court.
So if you have in your hands the files for the installer for a game which doesn’t do phone-home validations and you’ve actually explicity rented it for a limited time yet carried on using it past that point, the other side would have to take you to Court to stop it, and in the absence of a streamlined and very cheap Judicial process to do so for that kind of thing (like there is for things like loans) it’s generally not worth it for them because it costs more than they gain.
Similarly, if they control if and when you can install and run a game (which is possible even if you have the physical media - all it takes is for the game to have phone-home DRM that checks if you’re authorized) and they stop you from using it, even if you’re in the right with zero doubts (so, there was no clear upfront information that you were paying for a unilaterally revokable license and you live in a jurisdiction where Justice isn’t a joke, like Germany, so the unilaterally imposition of further contractual conditions after the sale - i.e. EULAs - aren’t at all valid), it’s generally not worth it to take it to Court to force the other side to restore you access to the game or compensate you (a few euros) for it because it costs more than you get back from it.
Holding physical media is highly correlated with controlling it, but (as per my example above) in a World of always on Internet access were phone-home DRM is easy to have, it’s no guarantee at all of actually controlling it - you might have the bytes in the stablest imaginable storage medium in your hands and you still don’t control it because you can’t actually access the game without external authorization - and that in practice means that you can get shafted even though you’re entirely in the right as long as the monetary amount you being shafted out of isn’t too large.
Converselly, whilst digital distribution is highly correlated with not controlling it, as stores like GOG show it’s perfectly possibly to sell games digitally in such a way that you get control of it (if you want - you have to actually download GOGs offline installers) by which point the cost of trying to control what you do with it is on the other side and the same monetary logic applies - it’s not worth it for them as long as the monetary amount they would gain from doing it isn’t too large.
Curiously, this also means that for PC games GOG can actually be a better way of getting de facto ownership of a game copy than physical media (if you make sure you download the offline installer) because GOG enforces the rule that their games have no DRM, whilst plenty of PC games in physical media have phone-home DRM.
It baffles me how ingrained this allready is. The people I play games with just accept that it’s happening. Saying “It’s all digital anyway.” and “I never owned anything.” And in the same breath they still remember “the good old days.” It’s like they have allready given up. I’m hellbend on owning my own software and owning my own data. And if I tell people I have my own cloud server to store my photo’s instead of some corporate cloud they express the wish to have that option as well. Yet, they all just go on with their dossile behavior of not owning anything…
It’s kind of both for me honestly. Call me old fashion… Or just old… but I really enjoy seeing a shelf full of game cases and looking through them to physically pick out what I wanna play. And it’s really just nice-looking to me, just like a bookshelf that’s actually full of books looks good.
I got to the block about Netflix, and got furious - because you’re exactly right.
During Netflix’s rise, I heard a common quote: “So in order to watch all the shows, I now have to subscribe to 8 different streaming services?? Screw that. Put it on Netflix, or I’m going to pirate it.”
There was a key detail of that generic quote that always infuriated me from how much people glossed over it: “…to watch all the shows…” There are some very cool games out that I haven’t even bought because there’s so many options. What kind of media junkie is watching every popular show right now? And obsessing over centralization so much they want a monoculture service that can raise its prices as easily as flushing a toilet?
Much as I like Steam, I like that it’s only one PC option. That’s important. Inconvenient, sometimes, but key to competition. Even Valve needs to be kept in check to promote consumer-friendly practices. I’m just upset no one believed in that when it came to TV, or some of the lesser services might not have needed to sell out to AMC or Disney.
How to think of games has changed over the years.
Arguably the first real computer game game “Spacewar!” followed the “the “hacker ethic”, whereby all programs were freely shared and modified by other programmers in a collaborative environment without concern for ownership or copyright”.
After a while, copyright came into play, and people were expected to “buy” a copy of the game, but “piracy” was common.
Meanwhile, the consoles pretended the game was a physical object, and that you needed that physical object to play, and that you could give that physical object to someone else, or sell it back to the store.
And then there was the shareware model, used for games like Doom. It kept the idea that games were copyrightable stuff, but it didn’t try to stop people from copying, and allowed them to share the games around. People were just asked to pay for extra levels, or sometimes just to send in some money if they liked the game.
On PC, Steam became the dominant platform because it’s less of a headache than piracy. Steam doesn’t pretend you own a physical object, you’re buying a license.
Fundamentally, gamers want the games to be free. If possible, they want to avoid paying for them at all. They want to be able to give them to friends, and have no restrictions on how or where they can run them: online, offline, on a phone, on a toaster, whatever. Once they have access to the game, they don’t ever want to have to give up access for any reason. They want the companies that make the games to release patches for any bugs that are discovered, and ideally, they’d like free additional content post-release.
Game companies want gamers to pay as much as possible for games. They want people to buy their games, they want an additional purpose for every additional machine the game is installed on. In addition, if they can manage it, they want people to pay continuously for playing the game, so it’s not just a one-time payment. They also want to be able to revoke access to the game at any time, and not have to pay the players when they do that. They don’t want to have to keep maintaining the game after it has been released, though they might be willing to do that if it’s profitable because it means more people will buy the game.
Neither extreme position makes much sense. If people aren’t going to give money to the developers, there will still be people making games as a hobby, but there won’t be high-budget AAA games made as a business. On the other extreme, if a game is too expensive, can’t be refunded, might be revoked at any time, and requires that you continuously pay while playing it, most people won’t bother.
So, what’s left is a negotiation, what will people put up with? Gamers typically hate paying for live service games, but if they do that there’s a reasonable business case for the game company to keep releasing content for the game. Gamers would like to be able to re-sell their game (really their licenses to those games), but that means a significant loss of revenue for the game companies, so they’re unlikely to accept that. The additional revenue means they can either keep the price lower, or can make a better, more polished game. Gamers would love to be able to play games forever without additional payment, even online games requiring servers. Game companies don’t want to have to support that based on a single sale that might have happened a decade ago. Game companies would love it if old games stopped working, so people have to buy new ones. That’s unlikely to be a fight they win in the long term though, because unless there is a required online component, it seems absurd to cut off access to the game just because it’s old.
In the end, there will probably be compromises. For a lot of people, the compromises will be unfair. Maybe they’ll play more indie games or even free software games. For other people, they’ll grudgingly accept, but in exchange will get games that have 100,000x the budget of something like “Spacewar!”
They want the companies that make the games to release patches for any bugs that are discovered
Technically someone who buys a game just wants it to work. Many generations of games were released without the ability to patch them after release. Games had a higher quality to them before being released.
While I won’t disagree that there is a benefit of this feature for consumers, the larger benefit it to the company creating the game.
Games had a higher quality to them before being released.
The quality was definitely higher, but there were also definitely still bugs in the released version.
Why do you say that the ability (and requirement) to patch the game after release is a benefit to the company that released the game?
Because they can release a game sooner and at a lower quality. In fact a day one patch is standard for nearly every game nowadays.
Before being patchable games were definitely still released with bugs, but it was rare for them to be truly game breaking.
Just because a day one patch is standard doesn’t mean it’s good for the game developer. Also, just because the game can be released in a buggy state doesn’t mean that’s good either. There are a lot of games that received massively negative reviews because they were released in a buggy state.
It gives you a chance to save your reputation if your QA processes are shit, but if they are that will bite you in the ass at some point.
And this is to go even futher beyond:
Ownership of software must include the right to maintain and repair it so it can continue to work - not only while the copyright holder’s servers says so. To be able to remove any digital locks as you would do to any physical lock found in your house. To do this we need the source code, and since not everyone is a programmer we need the right to share changes with others.
Support open source/software freedom respecting games!
Open source competitive multiplayer games would be catastrophically compromised.
Not really. Games have very similar security implications as any other server/client software.
You are right now reading on exactly such a system, which is open source, and still you don’t see massive amounts of hacks targeting lemmy or piefed.
The premise is simple: Never trust the client. The border you have to defend isn’t the border between the client software and the user, but the one between the client and the server. Always treat the client software as compromised.
In terms of games that means:
- All game state calculation happens on the server. The client sends to the server what it wants to do, the server sends what happens. So instead of the client sending “The player is now at position XY”, it sends “The player is walking forwards”. The server calculates the speed, distance and new position and returns that to the client.
- The server only sends the client things the player should know. If the enemy unit is not visible, it is not sent to the client.
Are you a videogame networking engineer? Because you’ve just handwaved away one of the most difficult challenges in gaming as if it were “duh that’s easy” level simple.
I can link you some GDC videos that talk about how hard this problem is if you want
ETA: Also you’ve only addressed memory modification attacks. This does not address external aimbots that read memory to determine enemy player position and then send legitimate-but-automated inputs to aim and shoot. How do you stop cheaters from doing this when they can see exactly how data is structured in memory, how values are obfuscated, etc?
Different person, but isn’t this already a problem with closed source games? My game dev experience is more hobbyist than professional, but I’ve spent a few lonely hours on ghidra. I also teach secure coding at my university, but I focus more on how to patch legacy systems and audit code for vulnerabilities. My point is that closed source vs open source, I see this as an issue in both systems and therefore irrelevant. Pardon my ignorance on this exact topic.
Why?
If you can’t write your game in a way to prevent cheating it really doesn’t matter.
I would argue that the only way to ensure trust in the competitive arena is to open source.
Could you imagine sports being played without defined rules?
Cheating is about a design challenge related to how clients and servers communicate and has nothing to do with the source code being public.
Cool. So tell me how to write a game engine that cannot have its memory read to determine enemy player position with precision and then automate aiming and trigger pulls in a first-person shooter
You have no idea how hard anti-cheat is or how determined attackers are because of the profit incentive.
It really depends on your goal. Obviously you can eliminate most cheating by a server model that never trusts the client.
This does not eliminate other possible client side cheating such as wall hacks or aim bots.
As I said, there is a logical problem to solve here because in the case of wall hacks (ie seeing enemies through walls) the client needs enough information to be able to show an enemy around a corner quick enough to make sense for a FPS. Visibility calculations are entirely possible and I am sure you could find creative ways to limit this as much as possible.
Aim bots or trigger bots are a lot harder, but for competitive games heuristic based anticheat shows a lot of promise without having to hook the kernel in a losing game of cat and mouse.
I want you to know that I literally work in this space and you are handwaving away an incredibly complex problem space that hundreds of smart people have been trying to solve for decades now and it’s only getting harder (good cheat suites use hypervisor mods and direct memory access kits these days). I would love to educate this community but I’m under NDA (in addition to not wanting to provide information that attackers can use to better understand how we approach this problem space)
I am not hand waving anything away, I am very familiar because I have been involved with game development. I am aware of the unique issues that multiplayer FPS generate and I am also aware of the current best solution.
Do you suppose games only use obfuscation as security? In turn-based games you have the time to not trust client infomation and real-time games could give the client less info until it’s actually needed. There would still be cheating via outside communication or outside tools.. as cheating isn’t a technical issue solved by denying user software freedom - it’s a social issue.
I want you to know that I literally work in this space and you are handwaving away an incredibly complex problem space that hundreds of smart people have been trying to solve for decades now and it’s only getting harder (good cheat suites use hypervisor mods and direct memory access kits these days). I would love to educate this community but I’m under NDA (in addition to not wanting to provide information that attackers can use to better understand how we approach this problem space)
Cheaters are preferable to your proprietary kernel-level anti-cheat and whatever sneaky plans you may have for users and their computers. Good luck winning an arms race.
If I ever do multiplayer (I hate networking) I plan to explore treating cheaters as a service problem, like pirates are to piracy.
Only some cheaters are a service problem. There are a number of different cheater archetypes and some of them do not respond to service offerings
And believe it or not, while kernel level provides a level of access that could be used for nefarious spying we actually do much MORE stuff people would find distasteful when we DON’T have kernel access, because we have to infer more without direct access to the places where cheat makers do their work
I’m unaware of any (1st party) game services being offerered to cheaters, or any explicit positive association. Best I can think of is a more neutural “anarchy” servers (i.e Minecraft). I imagine implimenting built-in “cheats” you would expect from 3rd parties (e.g. auto aim, wallhacks) but framed in a way that is hopefully tolerable to non-cheaters (perhapscalling it a handicap).
Having control over others’ computing, even with good intentions, creates a bad incentive. One must resist the temptation to use that control for your own benefit at the user’s expense. So no, I wouldn’t believe devs typically act more immoral when they have less unjust power over others’ computing.
Invested players tolerate a level of cheating and banned cheaters often re-buy the game again. There is a monitary incentive to have some cheaters in proprietary multiplayer games.
Open source client/server multiplayer games permit endless redistribution - new server hosters can exist. A server that falls to a bad temptation can be replaced by players migrating elsewhere.
That’s what buggs me about the situation. Physical media doesn’t matter one bit.
There’s nothing about physical media that conferrs any kind of ownership over the copy. Already way back in 2012 I bought an used copy of Skyrim only to find out when trying to install it that it used Steam and the CD key was already tied to the previous owner’s Steam account. I had the physical media, but it was worthless to me.
What we should be fighting for (or put our money towards) is DRM-free copies, like what GOG sells. If you really fetishize plastic disks nobody’s stopping you from burning a copy of the DRM-free installer onto one, or you can put it on your NAS, the cloud or where the sun don’t shine.
Exactly, it’s wild that the music industry is the only one that figured this out. I just buy my mp3s and never think about pirating
The only games you truly own from a pragmatic point of view don’t even come on physical media, they come with public licenses. Commercial products that you come to love will always be used against you. Just stop engaging.
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