In Latest Rebuke of Trump and Hegseth, Pope Says 'God Does Not Bless Any Conflict'

In Latest Rebuke of Trump and Hegseth, Pope Says 'God Does Not Bless Any Conflict'

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https://www.commondreams.org/news/pope-leo-hegseth-trump

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[insert joke about Jericho here]

But I’m at least glad this Pope is standing up to this in the only realistic way he can.

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Nailed it. Jericho was supposed to be the first step in annihilating the occupants of the “promised land”. As I recall, there are Jewish prophets who claimed the various setbacks were due to the incomplete genocide.

Netanyahu thinks he’s finishing that work.

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I love these interactions because they’re just so over the top it’s ridiculous.

The Pope says the most mild of things and the admin go bonkers.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_vult

Robert the Monk, who re-wrote the Gesta Francorum c. 1120, added an account of the speech of Pope Urban II at the Council of Clermont in 1095, of which he was an eyewitness. The speech climaxes in Urban’s call for orthodoxy, reform, and submission to the Church. Robert records that the pope asked Western Christians, poor and rich, to come to the aid of the Greeks in the East:

When Pope Urban had said these and very many similar things in his urbane discourse, he so influenced to one purpose the desires of all who were present, that they cried out, ‘It is the will of God! It is the will of God!’ When the venerable Roman pontiff heard that, with eyes uplifted to heaven he gave thanks to God and, with his hand commanding silence, said: Most beloved brethren, today is manifest in you what the Lord says in the Gospel, “Where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst of them.” Unless the Lord God had been present in your spirits, all of you would not have uttered the same cry. For, although the cry issued from numerous mouths, yet the origin of the cry was one. Therefore I say to you that God, who implanted this in your breasts, has drawn it forth from you. Let this then be your war-cry in combats, because this word is given to you by God. When an armed attack is made upon the enemy, let this one cry be raised by all the soldiers of God: It is the will of God! It is the will of God![18]

I’m not saying that I approve of Hegseth’s deus vult tattoo, but I would point out that it’s quoting one of your predecessors.

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I don’t quite get the predecessor argument. It’s pretty common knowledge that the church does not wear a white shirt, but why would you judge the modern Pope by the things a Pope a thousand years ago has said? Like, these are not the same worlds anymore. They didn’t even have the printing press back then.

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because supposedly they’re all the final interpertor of an omnipotent gods will…every discrepancy/flipflop across time hust highlights the absurdity of this mass delusion

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Apply the same standard to the enslavers that you guys call “founding fathers” any time a US politician makes some lofty speech.

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Something something crusades

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For those that believe there is an all powerful being who created everything and knows everything wouldn’t every single war be because this entity wanted it?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

The problem of evil, also known as the problem of suffering, is the philosophical question of how to reconcile the existence of evil and suffering with the notion of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God.[1][2][3][4]

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BUt wE liFe iN a fALlEn wOrLd

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I guess the beat response I’ve received is God knows every single choice that will be presented to every single person in every single moment. God granted us free will, the knowledge of what’s right and wrong and a holy text. After that, everything is up to us

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It’s my understanding that all mainstream Christians believe that God is omniscient, and therefore knows the future in complete detail, because if he didn’t know today what your were going to have for lunch tomorrow, that would be something that he didn’t know, and therefore a limit to his omniscience.

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such lazy writing

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God hates you, MAGA. And so do we.

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It’s always wild to me when adult human beings without any obvious brain damage start talking about what a made up deity may or may not be in favor of.

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The sum of all human endeavor can be summed up in a fun little madlib:

My (god, penis, wealth) will (kill, fuck, buy) your (genetics, wife, life).

Feel free to swap things around as needed.

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Way too many penises are buying genetics these days and I have had enough!

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God sure fucked my life. 🤷‍♂️

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Agreed, but it does make sense from an evolutionary/anthropological perspective. The thing to keep in mind is: it’s perfectly rational for a person to act irrationally if it improves their survivability.

If your king declares that the country is now Catholic, and anyone who believes otherwise will be executed, then the people who survive are gonna be devout Catholics.

Rational Irrationality is real.

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Go ahead, tell us how you really feel about the crusades. I’m not saying I disagree, but I think the church he’s leading still has a lot of reconciliation to do with its past. No better time to start than now. They need to start being honest with themselves before anyone else should bother to take them seriously.

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Forget the crusades, I want to see them reconcile with child abuse and smuggling fascists through the WW2 Ratlines.

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Looks like the Vatican is gonna need a regime change.

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Your predecessor blessed the holocaust, you hypocritical piece of shit.

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So the predecessor was wrong

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Edit: I was wrong

How is the Pope making official statements ("defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals” pretty much sums up all pontifical statements that aren’t a direct response to world events) concerning faith/morals which is destined to catholics anything “rare”?

BTW you paraphrased in a way that makes it less legible (IMO), here is the original:

[…] when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals

Source (Vatican 4th session, chapter 4)

We don’t have the official statements made by Urban II When he called for a crusade, I’d argue it’s a bit of a stretch to say that he didn’t bless that war to some degree, but if you someone wants to argue otherwise I guess we’d have to agree to disagree.

On the other hand, pope Leo made this statement:

God does not bless any conflict. Anyone who is a disciple of Christ, the Prince of Peace, is never on the side of those who once wielded the sword and today drop bombs

  • He is Is the Roman Pontiff, and there is no indication that he’s making this statement outside this role
  • He has made a declaration which can be qualified as a doctrine
    • “a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief” Merriam Webster
    • That point can be argued though, “doctrine” is a weird word.
  • Which is applicable to the whole church ("Anyone who is a disciple of Christ")
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After digging I’ll concede the point.

My misunderstanding was on the “he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church”, specifically “defines”, which is not simply, as I understood it, “makes a statement concerning X”

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Edit: I was wrong

Speaking infallibly can be done a number of ways, including the one which I literally quoted, from the Vatican council. This is not external information, this is catholic doctrine. You can find it on the official Vatican website, though only in Latin: https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/i-vatican-council/documents/vat-i_const_18700718_pastor-aeternus_la.html

It is possible to establish doctrines a number of ways, including through long collegial processes as you describe. Those are simply not the only ways, and an ex-cathedra declaration is the prerogative of the pontiff alone.

What specific point are you disagreeing on with me here? How is the declaration from Pope Leo not ex-cathedra per Vatican I?

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So the predecessor says ABC, and the current pope says no, are they both right and wrong?

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Well the pope just needs to not contradict their predecessors for this to hold. We’re (me included) snarking because Popes did materially support & call for wars, but (recorded) official statements have generally been anti-war.

Although funnily enough, unlike their roman counterpart, orthodox / coptic patriarchs always refused to call for holy wars, because: - As a matter of principle it didn’t really fit - Giving Christian support for wars made those wars (which were usually inevitable anyway) a Christian vs. non-Christian matter, meaning the church would die when it could survive under non-Christian management - And Muslims invading the eastern roman empire tended to be pretty tolerant & the taxes imposed by Muslims (including the Jizya) sometimes were even lower than those they paid under byzantine rule - And they also really did not care about the canon of the catholic churches (coptic, orthodox, roman), meaning heretics who would be burned or need to reform in Christian lands could live normally under Muslim rule

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Historically speaking that’s a cartoonish thing to say: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII_and_the_Holocaust

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Comments in Left News Wire@ibbit.at

24 And it came to pass when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness where they pursued them, and when they all had fallen by the edge of the sword until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned to Ai and struck it with the edge of the sword. 25 So it was that all who fell that day, both men and women, were twelve thousand—all the people of Ai. 26 For Joshua did not draw back his hand, with which he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.

Joshua 8:24-26

28 On that day Joshua took Makkedah, and struck it and its king with the edge of the sword. He utterly destroyed [d]them—all the people who were in it. He let none remain. He also did to the king of Makkedah as he had done to the king of Jericho.

29 Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, to Libnah; and they fought against Libnah. 30 And the Lord also delivered it and its king into the hand of Israel; he struck it and all the people who were in it with the edge of the sword. He let none remain in it, but did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho.

31 Then Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, to Lachish; and they encamped against it and fought against it. 32 And the Lord delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, who took it on the second day, and struck it and all the people who were in it with the edge of the sword, according to all that he had done to Libnah. 33 Then Horam king of Gezer came up to help Lachish; and Joshua struck him and his people, until he left him none remaining.

34 From Lachish Joshua passed to Eglon, and all Israel with him; and they encamped against it and fought against it. 35 They took it on that day and struck it with the edge of the sword; all the people who were in it he utterly destroyed that day, according to all that he had done to Lachish.

36 So Joshua went up from Eglon, and all Israel with him, to Hebron; and they fought against it. 37 And they took it and struck it with the edge of the sword—its king, all its cities, and all the people who were in it; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon, but utterly destroyed it and all the people who were in it.

38 Then Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to Debir; and they fought against it. 39 And he took it and its king and all its cities; they struck them with the edge of the sword and utterly destroyed all the people who were in it. He left none remaining; as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir and its king, as he had done also to Libnah and its king.

40 So Joshua conquered all the land: the mountain country and the South and the lowland and the wilderness slopes, and all their kings; he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel had commanded. 41 And Joshua conquered them from Kadesh Barnea as far as Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even as far as Gibeon. 42 All these kings and their land Joshua took at one time, because the Lord God of Israel fought for Israel. 43 Then Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to the camp at Gilgal.

Joshua 10:28-43

16 Thus Joshua took all this land: the mountain country, all the South, all the land of Goshen, the lowland, and the Jordan [f]plain—the mountains of Israel and its lowlands, 17 from [g]Mount Halak and the ascent to Seir, even as far as Baal Gad in the Valley of Lebanon below Mount Hermon. He captured all their kings, and struck them down and killed them. 18 Joshua made war a long time with all those kings. 19 There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. All the others they took in battle. 20 For it was of the Lord [h]to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Joshua 11:16-20

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Except the crusades, right?

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